Purpose

Thursday 26 February 2015

Crosswalk V -- moving forward in Making Peace


In a Christian Community everything depends upon whether each individual is an indispensable part in the puzzle. Only when even the smallest piece is securely interlocked the puzzle is complete. Awareness of the other is a good first step. Reflection, the second step. Acceptance, the third step. Confession (surely!) follows as the next step. Seeking and extending forgiveness -- right here is the sequence that can genuinely change the one another, the church, the world and us. But all that requires love, love of the other. 

 "by this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jh 13:35)

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/ef/f5/aeeff511271b6cf0a1e77126323f5d77.jpgI can't help it but to conclude from this verse, but also others, that the present wold has a right, certainly the ability, to judge whether our Christian faith is authentic, and therefore relevant. Because love, unlike everything else will have relevance even in eternity. Although we will judge the present world in the future, presently we are being judged by the world. Christians have not always presented an inviting or loving your neighbour as yourself picture to the world. Too often we have failed to show the beauty of authentic Christian love. Just like society around us, we are pervaded by the inclination to obstinate self-determination, the tendency to present what is one's own as the only thing that counts -- one's own person, one's own nation, one's own culture, tradition, church, one's own family or community -- or at least, one's own way of thinking. That does not mean that we have no convictions, but too often this has lead to self-isolation and an unawareness of the struggle of others.
One of the purposes for the church is to be a kind of rendezvous point between God and the world, where God through us declares concretely His love for all the people. Through us, God meets a struggling world, congregation and individual. But his happens only when we read the Scriptures together and pray together and being church together and break bread and share wine together. It is in those moments that God affirms to us that things between Him and us are made very good. And when we live in the stage of "very good" we become attractive. Moreover, when we are being church together we are no longer under the natural delusion that keeping rules makes us more lovable to God. If we fail to be church in this spirit, we will turn even the law --good things!-- into self-salvation projects. In fact we have turned many into self-salvation projects anyway, and therefore the world of today has disregarded our message of sacrificial love as unconnected to what they witness. God does not need our good works or sacrifices, but we do and so do our neighbours. God looks for obedience, or perhaps better stated acts of love. Unless our love to one another and others is qualitatively different to what of the world, we cannot expect the world either to listen or to seek us out when in need. In our era of global violence and sectarian religious intolerance, the church needs to respond compassionately to a needy and understandably confused world. In this sense, our mutual and unconditional love to one another has an apologetic purpose authenticating that we have been sent, but even more that Jesus had been sent by the Father. 

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The only way we as community to live a life of "producing much fruit" is when we maintain a taste of God's radical, unconditional acceptance of sinners, including the brother who has sinned against us. But this is not without struggle in which the world is an independent witness. What is the world observing when it looks at us?

Furthermore, observable love includes words like; I am sorry and than together to move on. This indeed a very difficult move. I may involve the arduous move to reestablish contact with people or groups we have hurt, or offended and seeking reconciliation. But the same is true when we have been hurt, or offended. Following the example of the incarnation, we the offended party has to seek reconciliation as well. This is the more difficult in that doctrine is not the only thing or the actual thing involved, relationships are not falling apart over technicalities. They are falling apart because of what gives us meaning. There is a scene in Arthur Miller's play Incident at Vichy in which an upper-middle-class man appears before an official of the Nazi-authority showing his credentials; a degree form a university, letters of references, and so on. The official asks him; "Is this everything you have?" The man affirms this only to witness that everything is being thrown into the wastebasket by the official; "Good, now you have nothing." The man is emotionally destroyed, because like so many of us his self-esteem depended on the respect of others. His achievement mattered, his opinions mattered and therefore he mattered because they gave him identity and meaning. Unfortunately, too often Christians find meaning and fulfillment in a temporal identity, rather than in the eternal belonging to God as Father. If the congregation no longer provides this eternal belonging but  substitutes it through activities or tradition, "you have to conform first or again," this affects genuine community and therefore our witness. Belonging involves reconciliation, forgiveness, repentance, trust and love. Belonging is not technical in nature but is deeply personal and effect us emotionally. If Christians no longer belong deeply we will find meaning elsewhere, be it work (doing something significant), in charity (caring for others), in tradition (bigger than oneself), in pleasure (as Freud suggest and the entertainment industry certainly seams to validate his perspective on the meaning of life), or in power (climbing the cooperate ladder, cf. Alfred Adler). But than our difference to that of the world is of little value to them.

There is no better observable difference than observable love, by "saying we are sorry." By continually sharing a belonging within a eternal family we are different. This at times arduous relationship is particularly important within leadership and congregation because failing to do so reduces trust and connectivity between both. Consequently the observable difference, a difference that truly matters would be fainting. But, it is a very difficult move. Pride, fear, incomprehension that something was done wrong and more could stop the necessary move toward reconciliation and therefore the restoration of belonging and witness. But there is one thing more difficult than saying; I am sorry, please forgive me, and that is to forgive. Forgiveness is a very deep matter. True forgiveness, just like love, is observable. It changes the way we interact in times of disagreements. It is an attitude the world is looking for in us. The world is looking on, and thus can make the judgement whether or not we exhibit unconditional love and therefor belonging. Church is more than sharing in common issues, which may change over time, or tradition, because each new person brings with it a new past, or even theology, because we are all in different stages in our journey. Church is about belonging. 

Several practical aspects derive from the motive of love leading to belonging.
  • Each sibling should be of help to the others, regardless of nationality, race, language, culture, and so on. 
  • Each should be of material help to one another, not so much as individual but as part of the whole. Hospitality, and by that sharing of a significant amount of time with one another, material goods, money -- all these are there to be shared with one another because of love.
  • Fellowship, companionship and friendship should be share within the family of God.
  • Love is observable and includes ongoing seeking each others best. 
  • Seeking and extending forgiveness and working toward reconciliation
  • Purpose of existence
All people are being made in the image of God, and being loved by God, therefore we need to love them us our neighbours. And it is natural, at least in the past, that we want to get to know them as best as possible. Yet, there is a special kind of love and understanding between Christians that unites us. In Life together, Bonhoeffer reminds us, "Only he who lives by the forgiveness of his sin in Jesus Christ will rightly think little of himself. He will know that his own wisdom reached the end of its tether when Jesus forgave him." Unfortunately, forgiveness is underrated and under-practiced. After all, we do not always get it right. And when we get it wrong, we tend to safe face or to justify our action. We revert to the mechanism of our old nature of fight or flight. We have extraordinary practice in both and often we do not even realize that we practice them. It either takes great humility, or an extraordinary friend to help us to recognize a wrong or a fault, to be repentant, to seek forgiveness, to make restitution, and to long for reconciliation. It takes time, sensibility and effort. It is much easier to be content with the time saving but worldly wisdom of "irreconcilable."    
Christ's grace makes true community, makes belonging possible and Christ's forgiveness sustains life together. Off course, we can think glowingly of the church community, as if it is some utopian commune, like we see in Star Trek or alike. 
The utopian view is painted something like this. The church is made up of Christian, who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, have a new life in Christ, a new heart of flesh, and have been given grace upon grace. Consequently, naturally everybody loves everybody to the fullest extend possible. This is a gift and not of works. 
But an ever increasing number of us realize and are honest with themselves that this is not the case, they are too clearly at the outside of the fellowship. In many churches people cope with their disillusionment, with a strategy of low expectation. Some are simply confused, others resent the reality of the human nature of the church and leave.

Church is not a dream world,at least not if we give full weight to the witness of scripture. The sooner we allow scripture to inform us about reality, the sooner we come face-to-face with a healthy level of disillusionment of others and a realistic disillusionment with ourselves, the better off the church as a whole is. Coming to grips with all of our own limitations and weaknesses and besetting sins that so easily entangle us goes a long way in developing and sustaining true and genuine community. Unfortunately we cover up, but children grow up and will ask, "Why is that blanket there?" And if we don't tell them the truth, they will uncover it themselves. We have to be truthful so that we can pass on truth to our children. If we continue to play things down, tell lies, avoid the issue, let the past rest we will pass on a false picture of us who are the church. And our children will pass them on to our grandchildren. However, some believe that what they were doing was right, but this only shows the depth of our denial. It has gone deep into our consciences and our minds, and for that reason Paul calls for a renewal of our mind. Awareness of our complicitous nature to avoid responsibility and suffering the arduous work of reconciliation is important for moving forward. Yet denial has become an accepted way of living, and the more we cover up our guilt, the pain we caused, the more damaging it is. If they are not deal with, these repressed truth will burst forth eventually and healing will be more difficult. Accepting responsibility is a form of suffering as it calls for the removal of an unhealthy self-image and fear. It is better for us to suffer a little more now, so that we can heal the broken relationships within our body. Yet often we substitute true belonging through shared interests or ministry activities in the church or simply denial and avoidance. 

When we have also come to grips with the same struggle of shortcomings including that of denial and avoidance in others -- including our leaders and heroes like David the murder, Abraham the liar, or Peter the backslider we live in a real and not idolized community. All three needed an outside voice to fully understand their sins, and so do we. It is in this real community friends who are also brothers and sisters that real belonging happens. Church is not a honeymoon but family life. That does not mean that we settle for a mediocrity, but that we give full weight to our humanness and the witness of scripture for our constant need of a highpriest.
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Peacemaking is not an evolutionary process happening through the passing of time or by looking in from the sideline. Peace is being created and recreated.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. (John 14:27)

Of course then there’s the classic statement of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount which is perhaps one of the lesser understood and hence practiced one among Christians:
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. (Matt 5:9)
The questions remains, how are we being peacemakers without simply succumbing to what we consider wrong?

Schaeffer outlines five principles that I believe are indeed very helpful in us moving toward making peace.
  • When we have significant differences we should never come to them without tears and regret. If we have tears there can be beauty in the midst of differences.
  • We must measure the seriousness of the differences and act accordingly with a concern for the holiness of God, refusing to back down, but seeking a way that shows the greatest love. We always need feel close to people, even if we do not like them (liking people is anyhow more of a self-serving emotion).
  • Real, concrete love will require at times great sacrifice, we must be able to suffer loss for the sake of keeping the relationship viable.
  • There should be a deep desire to solve the problem rather than a desire to win or the desire to avoid the arduous work.
  • Our call is to uphold both the holiness of God and the requirements of unconditional love. 
It is equally wrong to compromise about what is right and our oneness in Christ, especially when what is right is more about me. Without this tension held in balance the world will not know that the Father has sent his Son.

Saturday 14 February 2015

Crosswalk IV- It is not always easy to say you are sorry;


To stay silent is to be complicit, but to speak the truth in love offers freedom. It is not easy to stand against the tide of the culture and to say things that will leave us marginalized and possibly even persecuted, but we who follow Jesus, follow him in deeds and in words. The Saviour who came to seek and to save the lost warned that unless we repent we too will perish, unless our righteousness precedes that of the Pharisees we will be lost!

Misunderstanding happens easily, conflicts will never cease, not in this world, but how people, Christian in particular, handle them will make a difference. However these thoughts are not about giving a degree in self-recrimination but about having a degree of self-recrimination.

How do we handle conflict or the absence of unconditional, unreserved love among all people of a congregation? With people we sadly know little if anything about except they differ from us. Sadly, habits of the world tend to sneak into the life of a congregations, we favor certain activities over other and the same holds true with people. I don't think there is anything we can do about it, just as I can't do anything about being tempted. But do I act on the temptation? We all have our biases, favorites, or preferences, after all we are to a certain point conditioned by our upbringing, our culture, our gender but do we act exclusively on them, sidelining and overlooking people we feel less drawn to? The family of God is being fractured into camps, like different ministries with little or no overlap or common goals.
  
There are two common ways I have come across in my years as pastor how that fracturedness is being dealt with. The first way to deal with it is that leadership affirms the presence of a so called camp-mentality and the resulting fracturedness but calls that normal. To be fair, fracturedness in the world is indeed normal, just like irreconcilable differences, but should that also be among us, the members of God's family?  Have we become victims of low expectations, augmented reality or simply the loss of the first love? Self-interest and self-preservation can easily entangle us just like  any sin for that matter, but are we willing to admit that we perhaps have settled for the mediocrity of the world rather than following Jesus' example?
I think part of the problem is that we do not understand the concept of love apart from us benefiting in some way. The same is true to some degree with the concept of relationship where often both benefit from the friendship between them. I believe we have an anemic incomplete understanding of love. We have spiritualized and ritualized church and its message of unconditional love and reconciliation and taken away the practical application of it for daily life. 

Relationship is not a technical part of our lives, like a broken TV we simply replace but the very purpose of our existence as the image of God in the first place. Our humanness depends on relationships. But just like a car needs maintenance and regular check-ups and oil changes and tire rotation all of which cost time and money so do relationships. They too require time and maintenance and at times repairs. How is it that in my experiences we take better care for our material possessions than for our relationships. We even insure them against loss. The purpose of the church is to bring back together people or groups who have been estranged or separated. The purpose of the church is to restore and heal broken relationships between people and God in a tangible way here and now.  The church purpose is to be a showcase for restored and healed relationships between people and each other, people and creation, and even the fracturedness we experience within our own self. 

Living life with truth
However, we often do not admit even to ourselves our brokenness, deep seated hurts and resentments. And how can we? After all we have been taught that "everything has been made new" when we for the first time met Jesus. Justification is indeed the new creation of the person, but sanctification is the development of that person util the day of Jesus Christ. Both, justification and sanctification are united in the lifelong journey of following and obeying Jesus called discipleship.

That is our message, a gospel that calls every person to believe what Jesus believed, live as he lived, love as he loved, serve as he served, forgive as he forgave, and lead as he led. This is the power moving us to reconciliation, restoring the meaning of love to the church for growth, morality, and ability to once again influence a skeptical and needy world. 




I think that taking a step back in order to avoid an escalation of a conflict situation is necessary at time, but how do we take the step back back?

“To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you.” 
C.S. Lewis 





 
I ask this question, of going back, because I realize that there are different experiences and hence expectation regarding the relationship between Jesus and his followers. It felt often to me as living in a glass house; just beside the transparent wall I saw my brother or sister but I could not really get to them. The glass represents not only church infrastructure, local customs and tradition but also personal preferences. Often we experience in our "Christian life" a guarded and institutional community based on philosophies of ministry, on roles and hierarchy and less a community based on unconditional love and trust. And so many may totally be fine with a guarded relationship, after all it is still better than what they had experienced before they became a Christian.

But I believe the Great Commission is about relationships than about the transfer of information and facts about Jesus, Church and the development of doctrines. I don't think that the problem of many churches is a intellectual departure from the orthodox church but an increasing departure from the depth of the application of Jesus' call to follow. We need to remind ourselves that following Jesus, discipleship, is about believing what he believed, living the way he lived, serving the way he served, leading the way he led, and finally loving the way he loved.

Too many have settled for loving those who love us, we are naturally drawn to, we have much in common with not realizing that we have been influenced in our expectation and experiences perhaps more by the world than the story of Jesus' life.

Forgiveness, reconciliation; again we have settled down those who ask for forgiveness, from a position of righteousness. Or we forgive them in our heart in order to be free from anger without them ever benefiting from it. But the forgiveness Jesus gave was based on love, even acknowledging their guilt while maintaining their ignorance as well, he did not set limits on forgiveness either. Irreconcilability is not in his vocabulary and neither should it be in ours.

Many churches are marginalized, exist on the waysides of society because of estranged relationships, estrangement that goes back many generations of pastors. I have experienced that, and the help I received was that the people should simply move on. But Esau and his brother did not move on as brothers, guilt and fear where constant with Jacob until the moment they reconciled. The same is true with Joseph and his brothers, even though he had forgiven them they continued in a level of fear, heightened by the dead of their father.It took a lot more work from Joseph side than just moving on with his life. To love as Christ loved is the way to break down the walls of hurt, pride, shame, and ignorance that separate us and bring healing to broken lives. It takes acknowledgement that something is not right, followed by confession of sin, repentance, extending of forgiveness and the working on reconciliation. Jesus did not hold anything back and loved until other experienced that love; "love each other as I have loved you."

The need for depth must begin with the church's leader and to that end I pray, that we entrench our lives in the depths of humanity’s brokenness, while hold ourselves accountable to live to a standard worthy of desire.

Saturday 7 February 2015

Who forms whom?

and don't think
Each generation of the church in each setting has the responsibility of communicating the gospel in understandable terms, considering the language and thought-forms of that setting.


I am concerned for the church, and I don't think I am the only one. In part my concern is based on my basic assumption about the purpose or task of the church. Let me restate my understanding once more.

The churches task as the people of God is to provide access to truth and so opportunities for the worship and praise of God and the education and forming of His people for the life of caring for each other and others in response to God's love. I see these two task in light of the two commandments -- to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and to become the kind of people who will love people as ourselves.

These tasks were properly more easily undertaken in the past when many elements in the structure of our social structure and culture were formed and informed by the teaching of the church. In the time of the reformation, certainly shortly thereafter, much of the best music and art was inspired by the Christian faith and found its way in the homes and schools who were supported by Christian principles. The Christian ethos went out from the church and permeated society. But that is no longer the case. There are profound changes that have shaken the Church as our culture has moved away from its Judeo-Christian foundation.

We no longer can view the changes of the social fabric that surrounds us as harmless or neutral. Culture has the power to rearrange our values and lives, even when they are mediated to us through the benefits that the modern world bestows on us. The Charter of Rights is a case in point. While the Charter has greatly enhanced many of our relationships and spread its larges across Canada, it also has brought with it an almost inevitable naturalism and an ethic that equates humans as the source of truth. The Charter nor technology per se does not assault the gospel, but I see a correlation with what can be said of "human rights" apart from God. Something that can also be said of many others facets of culture that are similar laden with values. Certainly, we need to acknowledge that Church even at its best has to grow and to learn, has to push on, but loosing faith's theological core has lead to less fidelity of our faith. Perhaps we have to go so far to say that among us there is less interest for truth as truth seams to divide us. David F. Wells suggest that there is "less seriousness, less depth, and less capacity to speak the Word of God to our own generation in a way that offers an alternative to what it already thinks." The world has stop listening, in part we were not listening to them, their fears and concerns, yet we are listening to them in an even more profound way. We can see that among us of faith, who have been "emptied of their metaphysical substance" and are more "attuned to experience and to appearances, not to thought and character." In a time in which "feeling is believing." rather than "thinking is believing," we often don't ask enough hard questions or the right kind of questions about the foundation of what we are doing as denomination, as church or as individual.
We need to put back together what we have in isolation from each other

What also concerns me is whether our local leadership or denominational leaders have thought thoroughly enough about the worship of the church and culture to be different enough in contemporary society to make a difference. But the same is true with us as parents, for all of us, including our children, are more influenced by the shifts of thinking within the fabric of our society as we like to admit.  One hope, however, I have, the promise of Christ that he will built his church.

The Scripture, the history of the Church, training, my own experiences and faith convinced me that the vitality and faithfulness of our personal and cooperative Christian life and our effectiveness as witness to the world around us depends on the character that is forming in us. What do we have to do to best reach out to this society without watering it down that essential character building, called discipleship?

My major concern for the church has to do with our disengagement with school and society. On one hand we have organizations that engages the government with concerns of law and ethics, but at the same time I noticed an intellectual disengagement of churches with what goes on around them and how that may influence them. Changes in the school system and curriculum to name the most subtle but pervasive challenge for the church in their task of faith formation in the children. Part of the problem is that parents have disengaged themselves intellectually and are more concerns with behaviour and good grades at school than faith. Parents spent hours and thousands of dollars for children to attend sport events and have little time to reflect. Our society has become addicted to the sensory over-stimulation be it through TV or life events to a degree that many do not find time or even enjoyment in reading a book that forces us to think. That affects our worship in all its forms, and here I am not talking simply about Sunday morning. But worships character forming effect is so subtle and barely noticed, and although congregational worship creates a great impact on the hearts and minds and lives of the individual member, it is not enough. Faith formation is happening daily. In one way or the other, we are disciples of someone or something. Indeed, that we worship together both reveals and forms our identity as interdependent persons and should identify us as body of Christ, confirming to society what we worship individually.

For Jesus, spiritual formation and aka discipleship was not a program or a Bible study course, it was first and foremost a relationship between him and his followers. But not just a casual relationship, but the closest relationship possible with all its consequences. One of which is the challenge to our loyalties. When Jesus was told that his mother and brothers were looking for him, he used that encounter to teach an important truth about discipleship – that it is to be relational, like a family.
He replied to him,  “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Matthew 12:48-50)


Some suggest even that these discipleship relationships were to replace blood family, but certainly they were to function with the same level of love, respect, trust and commitment but also with a character of love not found elsewhere.
What we as parents, pastors, elders need to realize that the dumbing down of morals, ethics even thinking within our society has not necessarily stopped at the door of the church and that it forces the Church to ask critical questions about its life and worship. What about our ministries to people in a world that rejects ultimate truth, our ability to remain faithful witness in post-Christendom times. In what do we, too, lack the foundation and focus necessary for forming the intellect and faith of our children and ourselves?

What I have noticed is that worship services are shorter today than ever, some pieces of music from the front, a well presented short reflection, perhaps a prayer one more song. They are tailored to the audience and the preferences of the leadership. It seams to me that even our faith formation has been disrupted by our schedule, short attention span, lack of concentration, personal preferences and we seek rather instant sensory gratification than simplicity.

So the question is, what resources does the Christian faith provide for renewing and sustaining churches in a culture that is foreign to the gospel and yet we need to reach out beyond ourselves to persons of that culture?

Thursday 5 February 2015

Crosswalk III -- Gospel sometimes misunderstood "Am I the one"?

LastSupperDrawing

95% of all preaching is directed to 6% of the Western World's population 
and yet the church is shrinking  
(Bill Hull)

If I understand Jesus correctly, faith without obedience is not real but is little more than an intellectual exercise. The faith Jesus invites us to embraces a lifelong abandonment of following Him whatever the cost, wherever the destiny.

Too many of us have been taught that membership to a church means to agree to a set of religious facts about Jesus and the history of the particular denomination/
congregation rather than taking up their cross and follow Him. This encourages people to recite words they do not understand and have no plan to do anything about it. There is today often a separation from justification and sanctification which takes away from the authenticity of the gospel before the watching world. All this tends to create individuals and therefore congregations where faith equals verbal assent and costly commitment is the exception rather than the norm.

But what is actually the gospel? How we answer is crucial because it determines the kind of person and the kind of church we become. What we are becoming governs what we are doing. This includes the reputation we have as persons as well as congregation, the mission we are involved in, and whether the community of faith is a self-indulged crowed of individuals or a sacrificial force for the good of the world.  

"Christians are not perfect, just forgiven" I read here and there on bumper stickers. True, but this explanation can become an excuse rather than an explanation for the necessary grace. The church's drive to remain relevant and accepted in a society that no longer holds' to the idea of creation and therefore at least some level of personal accountability to the creator has diminished the distinction between the disciple and the surrounding culture. And when the distinction becomes too narrow, we fit in too nicely and comfortably we are no longer different to make a difference. This casual Christianity has created leaders and organizations (rather than a family) that are competing with one another rather than seeking unity. It has created congregations that live as forsaking all things to follow Jesus is optional and a separated issue from salvation altogether. Therefore, in Europa and North America, the church continues to shrink in size at an alarming rate, yet continues to preach a gospel that produces consumers of religious goods and services than disciples.

Is there a solution?

Looking at Scripture there is a solution; repentance. The very existence of Scripture is a call for repentance and the King of Nineveh a heathen picked up on that;

 "But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands.
"Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish." 
(Jonah 3:8f)

The prophet Joel hints at a similar solution; repentance.

... rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, 
for He is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in 
lovingkindness and relenting of evil.  
Who knows whether He will not turn and relent and leave a blessing behind Him, 
even a grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?
Joel 2:13f 

Repentance requires humility and a common question among us; Greatly distressed, each one asked in turn, "Am I the one?" Both, humility and self-reflection are normally not strong suits among us.

So, what is the Gospel? Is the gospel an event or a journey? Is the gospel just for the guilty, or is it something needed daily? Is the gospel about my status alone, or how I interact with other people, different people?